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The All "A" State Tournament is a KCAA sanctioned tournament on the same level as the KCAA State Tour. Because it is not all inclusive, it doesn't get the same attention or financial support as the State Tournament. All tournaments in the KCAA are hosted by one host school that hires the officials, even the varsity basketball State Tournament until this season when the league was forced to take it because of Landmark moving to the KCSAA. Unlike the Tip-off the All "A" has been a blind draw until this season when late cancelations from 3 schools and 2 schools asking for specific game times forced us to make slight changes in the brackets. Until this happened we held the draw live on the radio, drawn by our Pastor. The idea for the tournament was from Bethel but we have begged schools to host it at the league meeting each year after the first tournament. The draw this year was very fair and the brackets played out as most expected with the best team winning against the second best team. If you are looking for a Christian State Tournament not hosted by an individual school, you are in the wrong league. If you are interested in hosting it next year, it is available to you.

 I have been away from the league for a few years as I have stated; but from casual conversations with coaching friends, I took it as though the All 'A' State was something Bethel started on its own. I believe the tournament has grown from there. At first (and I don't know if it is now), I don't even believe it was sanctioned by the league; rather just something the small schools (through Bethel's lead) did on their own. So under those circumstances, I would say it has been ran fairly.

Just as a question on the state single A tournament. How would it be fair for a team who is competting in the single A tourney to host it and also to my knowledge set the bracket up and also get the refs. To me that is setting your self up for a single A title.  To me that is just as unfair as what you are talking about.

 Thanks, it's great to be back in the league. I do see your point. I think these are solid ideas. Surely we all can work together where we can come to some solution to satisfy all involved. Just a couple of thoughts on your ideas: First, I don't mind playing a certain number of games; however, in the past, it has been difficult to get all teams to play home and home over a period of a couple of years. The centrally located teams always had an advantage here because they could play one another and not travel as far. We at Majesty will travel to any where in the state (and beyond) to play, but we would want it to be required that we receive our home return game within two years. It seems that a few years back there was a big movement by both large and small schools to remove these game requirements. Secondly, I don't mind going back to all in the state tournament, but I don't know if that is feasible (gym times, etc.).       
 Would it be more feasible to expand the tournament by four wild card teams based on league record, with a league minimum games played, while keeping the first and second place teams from each regional tournament (total of twelve teams with the regional champions all getting a first round bye)? This way the teams that may have a legitimate complaint about being left out because of regional imbalance would still get to state, and those that like things the way they are would still have the same guarantee of making it to the regional final and advancing to state. Just a thought that probably has many holes of which I haven't had time to think!

Coach Shiarella, thanks for joining the discussion.  I was glad to see Majesty back this year, and I hope you continue to grow your school and your athletic program.

There are a number of ways to fix the problem, but first we have to agree that there is a problem.  So, here I will restate the problem:

Due to the arbitrary division of our teams into regionals, some teams must compete for a spot in the state tournament and some teams are granted a spot before they even have their first practice.

The worst example of this was in Varsity Girls this year, Oak Ridge played 3 games, lost all 3 by an average of 30 points, and that qualified them for the state tournament.

Given this example, I would hope that we could all agree that the system is broken, but it seems that some like the unfair advantage that they get now.

Some ways to fix the system:

1) Set a minimum number of KCAA regular season games that a team must play, not counting forfeits, to be eligible for the state tournament.  Maybe 10 for varsity and 8 for JV.

2) A Region with 1 team participating gets no automatic bids.  A Region with 2 or 3 teams participating gets 1 automatic bid.  A Region with 4 or more teams participating gets 2 automatic bids.  The remaining bids are at-large bids and go to the teams with the best overall KCAA records that did not get an automatic bid.  Then the tournament would be seeded by overall KCAA record.

3) Allow all teams in the state tournament and seed it by overall KCAA Record.

4) Give automatic bids only to the Region Champion.  The other 4 bids would be at-large based on overall KCAA record.  Then seed based on overall KCAA Record.  Regions would have to have at least 2 teams to have the automatic bid.

5) Go back to the old system of three regions.

I would like to see us do 1 and 4, but any of these would be better than what we have now.

[without doubt]

 As someone who has been "out of the loop" for a few years, I am glad to find this forum. Thanks for having this Coach Davidson! I can see both sides of the issue here. This topic is of interest to me since it was Majesty's idea back in 1998 to go to a regional format. At that time, we went to a three region format with an East, Central, and West. This system had the winner and runner-up from each region as well as two wild-card teams (the two teams with the best KCAA records not in the tournament) advancing to the state tournament. This system seemed to work well for a number of years until the league anticipated growth and moved to four regions.
 Unfortuantely the first region has lost teams for various reasons, including Majesty until we returned to JV boys this year. This is, of course, to no fault of Heritage or Bethel who have maintained their varsity programs. With all this said and to avoid the risk of rambling, for those who oppose the current system, what is your solution? Do you want to return to three regions, which I do recall hearing some complaining about how it was unfair to the Louisville/Lexington teams; do you want to add a couple of wild-cards; do you want to open the tournament up to everyone; or do you have another solution?
 I feel that there is no perfect system. I am sure there are numerous KHSAA Louisville schools that lose in districts that feel they could defeat teams from the western and eastern parts of the state that make the Sweet 16. However, their geography prevents them from even making it to regionals, much less state. Same issue could obviously be said about regional runner-ups.
 In regards to the "elitest" comment, I have been away from league meetings and the like for three years now so I do not necessarily know what prompted this particular comment or even who wrote it. However, even at that time, there was without doubt an attitude by some of the representatives of the schools previously mentioned that they were superior to the small schools. I will echo that the KCAA needs to be very careful not to force the hands of the small schools to go to another league.

Comments from the poll question:

Posted on: 2009-02-12 13:06:39   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.113.134    
In the 2005-06 season Trinity's Girls JV basketball team played in the State Tournament despite there being only 2 teams in that region. The fact that this question is even on here is simply another attack from some of the folks at Trinity against smaller schools/regions. SOME of Trinity's staff are elitist and want nothing more than rules changes to assure that their teams win every advantage, every year. There is a constant barage of their rhetoric to make changes to our leagues system to give an advantage to the large city schools that already have one because of their size and location! Go to the KHSAA already! Oh, that won't do. Trinity just wants to dominate the KCAA which make them feel good about themselves instead of playing aganist teams from the KHSAA where they would get their clock cleaned nightly. The system we have is fair and right. NO! system is perfect but if you allow changes to give advantage to the larger schools every year, then you will continue to see this league's membership drop. Already, we have lost some of our smaller schools to the KCSAA because they feel like the KCAA is not a place for smaller Christian schools to compete. If these elitist continue to ask for changes to our by-laws that are unfriendly to the smaller schools, soon there will be only a handful of schools in the KCAA. The majority of Christian schools in this state have a student population of less than 120 students. We, as a league, should make ourselves more attractive to these schools, not less. The KCAA should strive to have rules that level the playing field and help the little guy feel like he has a place to not only compete but also to win, least he become another member of the KCSAA. I personally don't have a problem with the large schools being at the top of our league each year. This should happen as they have the huge advantage of drawing from a student population that is much larger than most of the rest of the league. My husband would love to see the league loosen rules concerning homeschoolers to help the smaller schools compete and for the league to be more friendly toward home-educators. I can see why the league has the rules concerning homeschoolers but I believe it would help grow the league if we were more friendly toward homeschoolers. We have a good thing going and need to be more accomidating to everyone and not less. I rarely post something like this but was taken back when I saw the phrasing of the question.


Posted on: 2009-02-12 14:59:26   By: pete
Location: 192.146.101.24      Edited By: pete
On: 2009-02-13 16:26:29
This is not a question about school size, it is about competition. In fact, the school that benefits most from the system this year is our largest KCAA school, Heritage. Both Heritage’s Varsity Boys and Girls teams do not have to win a game this year to qualify for the state tournament.

The real problem is that the in the 2005-2006 season the KCAA changed from 3 regions to 4 in anticipation of growth that did not come. The new system of 4 regions would work well if we had 8-10 teams in each region. We are just too small for 4 regions now. In the old system there were never times when a team made the state tournament before the season even began. Should we reserve spots in the state tournament for some teams and make others compete for them just based on geography?

Since making the change to 4 regions here is the list of the teams that did not have to win a single game to make the state tournament:

2005-2006
Heritage, Oak Ridge, MICAH in Girls Varsity
Oak Ridge in Girls JV

2006-2007
Bethel, Heritage, Trinity, Blue Grass in Girls Varsity
Bethel, Heritage in Boys JV
MICAH, North Hardin, Cornerstone, Academy in Girls JV

2007-2008
Heritage, Bethel, MICAH, North Hardin in Girls Varsity
Heritage, Bethel, MICAH, Academy, Community in Girls JV

2008-2009
Bethel, Heritage in Boys Varsity
Heritage, Oak Ridge, MICAH in Girls Varsity
Oak Ridge in Girls JV

This year in Girls JV, Oak Ridge has played a total of 2 games in the KCAA and lost both by an average of 33 points. They have an automatic bid to the state tournament while Somerset, who played an extremely tough schedule and still went 3-6 will stay home. Is that right?

Making the KCAA State Tournament is something that should be earned on the court or the field, not just given out before the season begins based on geography.

Coach Davidson


Posted on: 2009-02-12 15:21:00   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.113.134    
From the time the league was founded in 1984 until, I believe 1998, every team in the KCAA had the opportunity to play in the State Tournament. Not just a select few each year. Maybe we need to bring it back.


Posted on: 2009-02-12 15:23:33   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.113.134    
Just keep on and you will get what you want, a league of Trinity, Heritage, Academy, North Hardin and Cornerstone. How would 5-10 schools suit you?


Posted on: 2009-02-12 21:57:14   By: Anonymous
Location: 74.137.107.129    
Red Herring- "In the 2005-06 season Trinity's Girls JV basketball team played in the State Tournament despite there being only 2 teams in that region."

-This has nothing to do with the question being asked.

Ad Hominem- "Trinity's staff are elitist"

-Someone needs a chill pill.
-----------------------------------------------


"The system we have is fair"

-Your belief that having teams with 0 wins into an eight team tournament as fair, well then I believe your view of fair is slightly skewed.

"NO! system is perfect but if you allow changes to give advantage to the larger schools every year"

-How does allowing for a competitive tournament give advantages for the larger schools. The change being asked is not saying those teams in two or less team regions can't make it, but that they actually must be competitive in a competitive sport.



Overall, the tournament serves one purpose and that is to find the best team in the league. Everyone is not a winner at the end and that is why a tournament is actually played. In order to find the best team, you need to place the top eight teams into the bracket. The way it is now allows teams with zero wins to enter the tournament. How is this fair to the teams that actually win games, no matter how "small" or large they are. I understand this is a Christian league with small teams, but come on making a tournament fair is not asking too much.

Make teams compete.


Posted on: 2009-02-13 10:07:54   By: pete
Location: 192.146.101.24    
Looks like someone was paying attention in Logic class


Posted on: 2009-02-12 15:30:47   By: pete
Location: 192.146.101.24    
All teams making it would be great! Seed them based on overall record and let them play. As it is now, all teams do not start out equal.


Posted on: 2009-02-18 22:36:13   By: Anonymous
Location: 96.28.184.79    
I understand the question and the issue. I can see why in a particular year, a team from a tougher division would feel that it was unfair that they did not get in the tournament while a team with fewer teams appeared to "waltz" in. I know that if I were the 3rd team from the Girls' fourth region this year, I would feel that I had a team with a legitimate chance to finish in the finals and would feel unfairly punished if someone else got in. (fortunately, that does not appear to be the case this year at the end of the day).

However, in the long term interests of the KCAA, I personally think it is best if all of the geographic regions of the league are represented each year. A team from a smaller school may get a chance to compete at the tournament that they would not otherwise get, which is ultimately good for everyone in the league. We need schools to believe there is a potential reward for putting in the effort each season. It promotes a sense of optimism which is ultimately good for everyone or we do run the risk of just having 3-5 schools competing. I can't see that being fun, challenging or rewarding for anyone.

And as a rare poster, I also want to thank Coach Davidson for putting this together and promoting the discussion.

Thanks

Dennis Murrell


Posted on: 2009-02-19 00:53:26   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.113.41      Edited By: pete
On: 2009-02-20 14:19:57
Coach Murrell, thanks for participating in this discussion and your kind words.

However, I think that you are missing the point. This is not about small vs. large schools. This is about competition and a level playing field. Did you know that the #1 beneficiary of our current system is our largest school, Heritage (enrollment 475)? Since they have joined the league, their varsity girls have made the state tournament every year without needing to win one game. On the other hand you have small schools such as Carrollton, Community, Danville, On Fire, Harvest, Lakeside, and Lawrenceburg that have to compete each year to try to make the state tournament.

When a team that plays only 2 games the whole year and loses them by an average of 33 points automatically makes our KCAA State Tournament, we have a broken system. I really do not see how anyone can think that this is helpful to our league.


Posted on: 2009-02-22 08:50:24   By: Anonymous
Location: 12.6.37.194    
The fourth region had three teams in girls j.v. yet again this year, why are they always the region to benefit, and have the extra team? Lakeside was #1 either T.C.A or B.G.B.S. should not have been there.


Posted on: 2009-02-22 10:23:50   By: pete
Location: 74.137.107.129    
Trinity took the Region 1 runner-up spot based on best overall record of teams not already in the tournament.

Some posts from the poll question:

Posted on: 2009-02-22 18:41:07   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.103.238    
Opening up homeschoolers to the KCAA would cause our league to grow tremendously. It is also the right thing to do. These kids are mostly Christian kids that's parents have seen the problems with a school system that has removed God from itself and have taken a stand to educate their children with the Bible at the center of that teaching. We should aplaud this effort and help them in this decision any way we can. Much of our growth will depend on how accomidating we can be to the homeschoolers. There are ways to do it and protect the intergity of the league and even help those schools that struggle with numbers. We just have to convince the larger schools that this will not threaten their monopoly on competition. They are mostly what holds us up in this. Some of them feel they have an advantage and don't want to share. I guess we will see at the spring meeting because I am sure this will be talked about again.


Posted on: 2009-02-22 18:44:20   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.103.238    
This is really a moral issue.


Posted on: 2009-02-22 19:20:36   By: Anonymous
Location: 64.130.179.231    
When we play as a school, we should only have players who represent that school playing for the team. If they do not want to be a part of the school, that is their choice - but a choice made with consequences. There are plenty of home schooler teams out there that play. If we open up the league to home school students, then we allow anyone to play for anyone. You will have players come in who do not want to commit to a school, but will dominate the competition in the name of that school. If they want to play for a school, they should attend that school. I don't believe that public schools allow home school students to play for their teams. That opens up too many unfair situations. A team should be comprised of players who attend their school only. That's only fair.


Posted on: 2009-02-23 13:44:15   By: Anonymous
Location: 74.142.210.81    
I have a problem with homeschoolers playing for teams where they are not students. The largest issue here for me is recruiting. I know a player at one KCAA school that is now playing with their 3rd school in 3 years, and is listed as a freshman even though they played as an 8th grader and freshman their 2 previous years. This should not happen. Students should be enrolled at their school full-time.

On the foreign exchange student issue, I also have problems with teams having these players on their teams. The schools in the KHSAA have to receive foreign students from a random draw. They are not able to recruit them. The reason for this is to make things fair between schools.

I do find it interesting that the people who are all for 'fairness' want to be able to cherry-pick players from wherever they wish. That does not seem fair to me.


Posted on: 2009-02-23 15:53:30   By: John
Location: 67.131.52.99    
I don't have anything against anyone who home schools their children, however, I do not feel that home schoolers should be allowed on KCAA teams. I have several reasons for this; First, the parents of the kids in Christian Schools are committed to the vision for Christian education of that particular school, or their kid would be in public school (or home schooled). How would home schooler parents justify sending their kid just to play ball? That is an extra curricular activity that children earn by keeping up their grades, going to school in a timely manner, and going to practice after school.
Also, parental commitment is a huge factor in successful Christian education.Not to mention the fact that you may be knocking someone out of playing who actually attends the school and pays the tuition. That definitely would not be fair.
Like someone else said on this forum, there are plenty of leagues they can play in that are out there already.
But if your not getting up and going to school and putting your 7 or so hours in, it's just not fair.
This is not a matter of moral right and wrong. These are the rules and if you don't like them, then don't send your kid to a Christian school. Besides, I hardly think that sports is going to be much of a topic when we meet the Lord.


Posted on: 2009-02-24 15:19:29   By: John
Location: 67.131.52.99    
I thought I posted a comment yesterday but I must have not done it correctly. I guess those things happen with age. It seems we've gotten off the original home school question and on to the foreign exchange students but one might say there is a relationship between the two.

As far as home school students participating in the KCAA I say yes. I think we all can see the benefits of Christian schools above that of the government run school system. Shouldn't we also see that from a Biblical perspective that parents who are educating their children at home are at least equal to Christian schools or maybe even more in line with their God given responsibility to educate their children. If our main interest is Christian education I don't see how we can justify discriminating against those parents who are educating their children at home. This reminds me a little of Keith Green's song "The Sheep and the Goats." Can't you see us standing before the Lord saying, "Lord, the reason I didn't let your home school children on our teams was.......! Whatever the reason we give Him may not sound as good there as we thought it did here.

Of course there might be abuses and problems to overcome but these could be dealt with with proper oversight.

Also I've been involved with the NACA (National Association of Christian Athletes) tournaments the past four years and have spoken to coaches and parents from many different parts of the country who are surprised at how Kentucky treats home school families. Many states not only allow home schoolers to play for Christian schools but also for public schools.

So from my subjective perspective I think it's a really good idea.

Some posts from the poll question:

Posted on: 2009-02-23 11:19:42   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.103.238
What about foreign exchange students. They go to our schools and each school is limited to allowing only 2 to play per school even though there many be others that "attend that school". Is that fair? They are students that attend that school as well.


Posted on: 2009-02-23 11:21:01   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.103.238    
I think that exclusion of any "student" is wrong.


Posted on: 2009-02-23 13:47:59   By: Anonymous
Location: 74.142.210.81    
So, if a student has played a few games their freshman year at a public school you are not in favor of them losing a year of eligibility. That would be in the spirit of 'inclusion'.


Posted on: 2009-02-23 13:44:15   By: Anonymous
Location: 74.142.210.81
I have a problem with homeschoolers playing for teams where they are not students. The largest issue here for me is recruiting. I know a player at one KCAA school that is now playing with their 3rd school in 3 years, and is listed as a freshman even though they played as an 8th grader and freshman their 2 previous years. This should not happen. Students should be enrolled at their school full-time.

On the foreign exchange student issue, I also have problems with teams having these players on their teams. The schools in the KHSAA have to receive foreign students from a random draw. They are not able to recruit them. The reason for this is to make things fair between schools.

I do find it interesting that the people who are all for 'fairness' want to be able to cherry-pick players from wherever they wish. That does not seem fair to me.


Posted on: 2009-02-24 01:05:45   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.103.238    
Obviously that foreign player thing was about Bethel, which is only one of many schools in the KCAA that have used foreign exchange students on their teams. Many KCAA schools have had and do have foreign exchange students. Just last year, North Hardin won a State Championship in Soccer and Boys Varsity Basketball with a French player as the MVP in soccer and All-Tour in basketball. Landmark also won a soccer State Championship with foreign players. They are all over the league even today. Secondly, we don't call it recruiting we call it rescuing. These kids are given an opportunity to make a better life for themselves and possiblly go to an American college. The most important thing though is that they are taught the Gospel while they are here. I just walked in the door 5 minutes ago from a game in Indiana and all they way home I was able to talk to one of my kids about Jesus and his eternal destination. The kid has not yet accepted Christ and is close to doing so. I will continue to pray for him and talk to him further about his salvation. Since we have been doing this program, most of the kids have accepted Christ. That most likely would not have happened if they had not come to Kentucky (drawn by this game of basketball) and spent time with a people that truly care about them and want to see them saved. Does basketball play a part in this; of course it does. Sports is the most common link amoung teens worldwide. Why can't we use sports to help these kids and possibly see them saved because of it. Anyone that can't see that is really missing it.

Since we have been blessed by this program (which is now becoming very popular amoung many Christian schools across the country) we have seen these kids lives being changed by their experience with us.

As far as Cherry-picking is concerned, let me say that I will personally come to each and every Christian school that wants to start a program and help in any way I can to get as many foreign athletes enrolled as you would like to have. I will take care of the whole process for you. Already I have helped Lawrenceburg Christian get their first 2 kids and have talked at length to 3 other schools about starting programs in their schools. This has nothing to do with gaining an unfair advantage in our league but everything to do with helping kids. I beg of you to put me to the test. If your school will allow, I will gladly help you bring some wonderful foreign kids that will bless your school with their life and diversity and you can help them by being a place that can be a launching pad for a bright future by their receiving a Christian education in high school and a colleg degree. This is "rescuing" folks. You can call it recruiting all you want but all I know is that we are helping kids and I don't see race or nationality when I look at them. I see a young man that need Jesus and a chance to a brighter future.

I was very serious about getting a Matthew 28 Project started in your school/church. This is remnant stuff folks so lets not cheapin it with talk of unfair advantage when it available to all that shall...


Posted on: 2009-02-24 07:56:38   By: Anonymous
Location: 74.142.210.81    
"That most likely would not have happened if they had not come to Kentucky (drawn by this game of basketball) and spent time with a people that truly care about them and want to see them saved."

By this do you mean that the world will only be reached if we bring them here and preach the gospel. We are to "Go" and make disciples of all nations. Don't get me wrong, I am all for ministering to foreign exchange students as they come to America. But only for the purpose of sending them back to their home culture to reach the nations for Jesus.

"Anyone that can't see that is really missing it."

Poisoning the well here.

"This has nothing to do with gaining an unfair advantage in our league but everything to do with helping kids. I beg of you to put me to the test."

If this is the case, how many non-sports students are you bringing in? What is the ratio of sports vs. non-sports exchange students? Is it the same as your general student population? It seems to me is about improving your teams AND reaching the lost.

"This is "rescuing" folks. You can call it recruiting all you want but all I know is that we are helping kids and I don't see race or nationality when I look at them. I see a young man that need Jesus and a chance to a brighter future."

Are you saying there is no hope of their "rescue" or a "brighter future" if we don't bring them here? I beg to differ. Education and American acculturation are not part of the gospel. You will not find a biblical basis for that. Hope and a future are found in relationship to Jesus Christ, not in personal or financial gain. Again, don't get me wrong, I have had many many opportunities to see the Lord use my life in the lives of foreign exchange students. We have a wonderful opportunity to bring the gospel to those who have never heard the name of Jesus. However, that is a minor subset (numerically and effectively) of the Great Commission. It will never be a substitute for or equal to the command and impact of going. I am so greatly supportive of the kingdom work you and others across our nation are doing. My point is that the motivation for this work gets a bit dicey when it is only star athletes we are hoping to win to the Lord.


Posted on: 2009-02-24 10:30:46   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.103.238    
We have as many foreign students that do not participate in athletics as we do that do participate. We are working on adding 8 Chinese (or Korean) students next year as well. These kids will have no athletic background as far as we know.

I never implied that kids can only be saved if they came here. I would guess that our church is ministering to more countries all over the world than most churches. We currently have 100's of network churches in India, Africa, South America, Europe and North America. Our program is a very small part of a worldwide vision to use all the gifts God has given us to progress His Kingdom.

There is no argument that we are only in it for the "star" athletes. We take kids regardless of their athletic abilities. I encourage you to visit our school and see all the diversity in such a small school.

This program is just a small part of a bigger ministry. My question is 'why can't we use what we know (athletics) to help further the Kingdom of God? We are already fielding these Christian school teams each year. Why not take it a step further and add an evangelistic thrust and athletic excellence to the situation. I understand that some people will never be able to see past the talent that the kids have been blessed with (from God). In our league it seems that there is never an issue with what a school does as long as they are not winning. I suppose that is everywhere and not just in the KCAA. You talk about motivation and my heart is clear in this matter. I honestly don't want to win enough to go through the trouble to do this. I do, however, want to bless God with what we are doing in our athletic program. We are not the only KCAA schools with great foreign atheltes as I have pointed out and we would love for the playing field to be even with helping you establish a Matthew 28 Project in your school. Please think about joining this wonderful program that will bless you and some great kids as well.

Should the KCAA have a limit on the number of foreign exchange students on a team?