Discussion on KCAA State Tournament Selections

[Coach Davidson]

Should a team have to earn its way into the state tournament?

[Coach Davidson]

Comments from the poll question:

Posted on: 2009-02-12 13:06:39   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.113.134    
In the 2005-06 season Trinity's Girls JV basketball team played in the State Tournament despite there being only 2 teams in that region. The fact that this question is even on here is simply another attack from some of the folks at Trinity against smaller schools/regions. SOME of Trinity's staff are elitist and want nothing more than rules changes to assure that their teams win every advantage, every year. There is a constant barage of their rhetoric to make changes to our leagues system to give an advantage to the large city schools that already have one because of their size and location! Go to the KHSAA already! Oh, that won't do. Trinity just wants to dominate the KCAA which make them feel good about themselves instead of playing aganist teams from the KHSAA where they would get their clock cleaned nightly. The system we have is fair and right. NO! system is perfect but if you allow changes to give advantage to the larger schools every year, then you will continue to see this league's membership drop. Already, we have lost some of our smaller schools to the KCSAA because they feel like the KCAA is not a place for smaller Christian schools to compete. If these elitist continue to ask for changes to our by-laws that are unfriendly to the smaller schools, soon there will be only a handful of schools in the KCAA. The majority of Christian schools in this state have a student population of less than 120 students. We, as a league, should make ourselves more attractive to these schools, not less. The KCAA should strive to have rules that level the playing field and help the little guy feel like he has a place to not only compete but also to win, least he become another member of the KCSAA. I personally don't have a problem with the large schools being at the top of our league each year. This should happen as they have the huge advantage of drawing from a student population that is much larger than most of the rest of the league. My husband would love to see the league loosen rules concerning homeschoolers to help the smaller schools compete and for the league to be more friendly toward home-educators. I can see why the league has the rules concerning homeschoolers but I believe it would help grow the league if we were more friendly toward homeschoolers. We have a good thing going and need to be more accomidating to everyone and not less. I rarely post something like this but was taken back when I saw the phrasing of the question.


Posted on: 2009-02-12 14:59:26   By: pete
Location: 192.146.101.24      Edited By: pete
On: 2009-02-13 16:26:29
This is not a question about school size, it is about competition. In fact, the school that benefits most from the system this year is our largest KCAA school, Heritage. Both Heritage’s Varsity Boys and Girls teams do not have to win a game this year to qualify for the state tournament.

The real problem is that the in the 2005-2006 season the KCAA changed from 3 regions to 4 in anticipation of growth that did not come. The new system of 4 regions would work well if we had 8-10 teams in each region. We are just too small for 4 regions now. In the old system there were never times when a team made the state tournament before the season even began. Should we reserve spots in the state tournament for some teams and make others compete for them just based on geography?

Since making the change to 4 regions here is the list of the teams that did not have to win a single game to make the state tournament:

2005-2006
Heritage, Oak Ridge, MICAH in Girls Varsity
Oak Ridge in Girls JV

2006-2007
Bethel, Heritage, Trinity, Blue Grass in Girls Varsity
Bethel, Heritage in Boys JV
MICAH, North Hardin, Cornerstone, Academy in Girls JV

2007-2008
Heritage, Bethel, MICAH, North Hardin in Girls Varsity
Heritage, Bethel, MICAH, Academy, Community in Girls JV

2008-2009
Bethel, Heritage in Boys Varsity
Heritage, Oak Ridge, MICAH in Girls Varsity
Oak Ridge in Girls JV

This year in Girls JV, Oak Ridge has played a total of 2 games in the KCAA and lost both by an average of 33 points. They have an automatic bid to the state tournament while Somerset, who played an extremely tough schedule and still went 3-6 will stay home. Is that right?

Making the KCAA State Tournament is something that should be earned on the court or the field, not just given out before the season begins based on geography.

Coach Davidson


Posted on: 2009-02-12 15:21:00   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.113.134    
From the time the league was founded in 1984 until, I believe 1998, every team in the KCAA had the opportunity to play in the State Tournament. Not just a select few each year. Maybe we need to bring it back.


Posted on: 2009-02-12 15:23:33   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.113.134    
Just keep on and you will get what you want, a league of Trinity, Heritage, Academy, North Hardin and Cornerstone. How would 5-10 schools suit you?


Posted on: 2009-02-12 21:57:14   By: Anonymous
Location: 74.137.107.129    
Red Herring- "In the 2005-06 season Trinity's Girls JV basketball team played in the State Tournament despite there being only 2 teams in that region."

-This has nothing to do with the question being asked.

Ad Hominem- "Trinity's staff are elitist"

-Someone needs a chill pill.
-----------------------------------------------


"The system we have is fair"

-Your belief that having teams with 0 wins into an eight team tournament as fair, well then I believe your view of fair is slightly skewed.

"NO! system is perfect but if you allow changes to give advantage to the larger schools every year"

-How does allowing for a competitive tournament give advantages for the larger schools. The change being asked is not saying those teams in two or less team regions can't make it, but that they actually must be competitive in a competitive sport.



Overall, the tournament serves one purpose and that is to find the best team in the league. Everyone is not a winner at the end and that is why a tournament is actually played. In order to find the best team, you need to place the top eight teams into the bracket. The way it is now allows teams with zero wins to enter the tournament. How is this fair to the teams that actually win games, no matter how "small" or large they are. I understand this is a Christian league with small teams, but come on making a tournament fair is not asking too much.

Make teams compete.


Posted on: 2009-02-13 10:07:54   By: pete
Location: 192.146.101.24    
Looks like someone was paying attention in Logic class


Posted on: 2009-02-12 15:30:47   By: pete
Location: 192.146.101.24    
All teams making it would be great! Seed them based on overall record and let them play. As it is now, all teams do not start out equal.


Posted on: 2009-02-18 22:36:13   By: Anonymous
Location: 96.28.184.79    
I understand the question and the issue. I can see why in a particular year, a team from a tougher division would feel that it was unfair that they did not get in the tournament while a team with fewer teams appeared to "waltz" in. I know that if I were the 3rd team from the Girls' fourth region this year, I would feel that I had a team with a legitimate chance to finish in the finals and would feel unfairly punished if someone else got in. (fortunately, that does not appear to be the case this year at the end of the day).

However, in the long term interests of the KCAA, I personally think it is best if all of the geographic regions of the league are represented each year. A team from a smaller school may get a chance to compete at the tournament that they would not otherwise get, which is ultimately good for everyone in the league. We need schools to believe there is a potential reward for putting in the effort each season. It promotes a sense of optimism which is ultimately good for everyone or we do run the risk of just having 3-5 schools competing. I can't see that being fun, challenging or rewarding for anyone.

And as a rare poster, I also want to thank Coach Davidson for putting this together and promoting the discussion.

Thanks

Dennis Murrell


Posted on: 2009-02-19 00:53:26   By: Anonymous
Location: 70.157.113.41      Edited By: pete
On: 2009-02-20 14:19:57
Coach Murrell, thanks for participating in this discussion and your kind words.

However, I think that you are missing the point. This is not about small vs. large schools. This is about competition and a level playing field. Did you know that the #1 beneficiary of our current system is our largest school, Heritage (enrollment 475)? Since they have joined the league, their varsity girls have made the state tournament every year without needing to win one game. On the other hand you have small schools such as Carrollton, Community, Danville, On Fire, Harvest, Lakeside, and Lawrenceburg that have to compete each year to try to make the state tournament.

When a team that plays only 2 games the whole year and loses them by an average of 33 points automatically makes our KCAA State Tournament, we have a broken system. I really do not see how anyone can think that this is helpful to our league.


Posted on: 2009-02-22 08:50:24   By: Anonymous
Location: 12.6.37.194    
The fourth region had three teams in girls j.v. yet again this year, why are they always the region to benefit, and have the extra team? Lakeside was #1 either T.C.A or B.G.B.S. should not have been there.


Posted on: 2009-02-22 10:23:50   By: pete
Location: 74.137.107.129    
Trinity took the Region 1 runner-up spot based on best overall record of teams not already in the tournament.

[Coach Shiarella]

 As someone who has been "out of the loop" for a few years, I am glad to find this forum. Thanks for having this Coach Davidson! I can see both sides of the issue here. This topic is of interest to me since it was Majesty's idea back in 1998 to go to a regional format. At that time, we went to a three region format with an East, Central, and West. This system had the winner and runner-up from each region as well as two wild-card teams (the two teams with the best KCAA records not in the tournament) advancing to the state tournament. This system seemed to work well for a number of years until the league anticipated growth and moved to four regions.
 Unfortuantely the first region has lost teams for various reasons, including Majesty until we returned to JV boys this year. This is, of course, to no fault of Heritage or Bethel who have maintained their varsity programs. With all this said and to avoid the risk of rambling, for those who oppose the current system, what is your solution? Do you want to return to three regions, which I do recall hearing some complaining about how it was unfair to the Louisville/Lexington teams; do you want to add a couple of wild-cards; do you want to open the tournament up to everyone; or do you have another solution?
 I feel that there is no perfect system. I am sure there are numerous KHSAA Louisville schools that lose in districts that feel they could defeat teams from the western and eastern parts of the state that make the Sweet 16. However, their geography prevents them from even making it to regionals, much less state. Same issue could obviously be said about regional runner-ups.
 In regards to the "elitest" comment, I have been away from league meetings and the like for three years now so I do not necessarily know what prompted this particular comment or even who wrote it. However, even at that time, there was without doubt an attitude by some of the representatives of the schools previously mentioned that they were superior to the small schools. I will echo that the KCAA needs to be very careful not to force the hands of the small schools to go to another league.

[Coach Davidson]

Coach Shiarella, thanks for joining the discussion.  I was glad to see Majesty back this year, and I hope you continue to grow your school and your athletic program.

There are a number of ways to fix the problem, but first we have to agree that there is a problem.  So, here I will restate the problem:

Due to the arbitrary division of our teams into regionals, some teams must compete for a spot in the state tournament and some teams are granted a spot before they even have their first practice.

The worst example of this was in Varsity Girls this year, Oak Ridge played 3 games, lost all 3 by an average of 30 points, and that qualified them for the state tournament.

Given this example, I would hope that we could all agree that the system is broken, but it seems that some like the unfair advantage that they get now.

Some ways to fix the system:

1) Set a minimum number of KCAA regular season games that a team must play, not counting forfeits, to be eligible for the state tournament.  Maybe 10 for varsity and 8 for JV.

2) A Region with 1 team participating gets no automatic bids.  A Region with 2 or 3 teams participating gets 1 automatic bid.  A Region with 4 or more teams participating gets 2 automatic bids.  The remaining bids are at-large bids and go to the teams with the best overall KCAA records that did not get an automatic bid.  Then the tournament would be seeded by overall KCAA record.

3) Allow all teams in the state tournament and seed it by overall KCAA Record.

4) Give automatic bids only to the Region Champion.  The other 4 bids would be at-large based on overall KCAA record.  Then seed based on overall KCAA Record.  Regions would have to have at least 2 teams to have the automatic bid.

5) Go back to the old system of three regions.

I would like to see us do 1 and 4, but any of these would be better than what we have now.

[Coach Shiarella]

 Thanks, it's great to be back in the league. I do see your point. I think these are solid ideas. Surely we all can work together where we can come to some solution to satisfy all involved. Just a couple of thoughts on your ideas: First, I don't mind playing a certain number of games; however, in the past, it has been difficult to get all teams to play home and home over a period of a couple of years. The centrally located teams always had an advantage here because they could play one another and not travel as far. We at Majesty will travel to any where in the state (and beyond) to play, but we would want it to be required that we receive our home return game within two years. It seems that a few years back there was a big movement by both large and small schools to remove these game requirements. Secondly, I don't mind going back to all in the state tournament, but I don't know if that is feasible (gym times, etc.).       
 Would it be more feasible to expand the tournament by four wild card teams based on league record, with a league minimum games played, while keeping the first and second place teams from each regional tournament (total of twelve teams with the regional champions all getting a first round bye)? This way the teams that may have a legitimate complaint about being left out because of regional imbalance would still get to state, and those that like things the way they are would still have the same guarantee of making it to the regional final and advancing to state. Just a thought that probably has many holes of which I haven't had time to think!

[withrowderek]

Just as a question on the state single A tournament. How would it be fair for a team who is competting in the single A tourney to host it and also to my knowledge set the bracket up and also get the refs. To me that is setting your self up for a single A title.  To me that is just as unfair as what you are talking about.

[Coach Shiarella]

 I have been away from the league for a few years as I have stated; but from casual conversations with coaching friends, I took it as though the All 'A' State was something Bethel started on its own. I believe the tournament has grown from there. At first (and I don't know if it is now), I don't even believe it was sanctioned by the league; rather just something the small schools (through Bethel's lead) did on their own. So under those circumstances, I would say it has been ran fairly.

[Coach Massey]

The All "A" State Tournament is a KCAA sanctioned tournament on the same level as the KCAA State Tour. Because it is not all inclusive, it doesn't get the same attention or financial support as the State Tournament. All tournaments in the KCAA are hosted by one host school that hires the officials, even the varsity basketball State Tournament until this season when the league was forced to take it because of Landmark moving to the KCSAA. Unlike the Tip-off the All "A" has been a blind draw until this season when late cancelations from 3 schools and 2 schools asking for specific game times forced us to make slight changes in the brackets. Until this happened we held the draw live on the radio, drawn by our Pastor. The idea for the tournament was from Bethel but we have begged schools to host it at the league meeting each year after the first tournament. The draw this year was very fair and the brackets played out as most expected with the best team winning against the second best team. If you are looking for a Christian State Tournament not hosted by an individual school, you are in the wrong league. If you are interested in hosting it next year, it is available to you.